A Conversation with: Jim Grew
The Profiles in Leaderships series features conversations with organizational leadership experts to discuss important lessons they have learned and what “Hiring for Good” means to them. This series helps us better understand the role leadership plays in positive transformations and growth for people, organizations, and the world we live in.
This episode features a conversation with Jim Grew, executive advisor. Jim works with senior leaders to accelerate their impact. He helps executive teams and boards to sharpen organizational effectiveness igniting dramatic shifts in performance with minimum disturbance in the organization. His unique mix of business experience and advanced psychology training is the catalyst that clarifies a strategy for companies and helps teams cut through the fog to produce dramatic results.
Go to www.grewco.com for Jim Grew’s latest book: 99 Leadership Myths Debunked
Jim’s Contact Information: jim@grewco.com | 503-544-8857 | www.grewco.com
“(My) focus has been on what I’m going to call Operations, which is not a job title, but it’s how businesses perform better. And that can be with reference to revenue, profit, morale, customer service, or some mix of those. It’s helping the leader… be more clear about what things really matter and then helping get the organization to do those things..”
Transcript:
Suzanne Hanifin: Well, hi there. This is Suzanne Hanifin with Acumen Executive Search, and I am really excited to be here with Jim Grew. Jim is an amazing consultant. For those who don't know him, he's not only an author but also an active blogger. He has been a CEO of... Jim, how many organizations?
Jim Grew: Well, I've run eight businesses, and five of them I was the head of the company, either CEO or president.
Suzanne Hanifin: Yeah, and with us today, I am so excited because Jim has not just a lot of experience but also a lot of great insights that I think hopefully we'll all learn from. So, how are you doing today, Jim?
Jim Grew: Oh, I'm good.
Suzanne Hanifin: Yeah, anything else you want to add to the introduction?
Jim Grew: I don't think so. Maybe the simplest explanation is I started like most people, working in a job and moved on from several jobs to working in midsize businesses, typically for the owner, and focusing on whatever the business needed at that time. And I love that. So, I've stopped working in companies and have been a consultant for probably 20 years.
Suzanne Hanifin: Wow, I did not realize it was that long. That's fantastic.
Jim Grew: Yeah, me neither. Time just passes. So, the focus has been on what I'm going to call Operations, which is not a job title, but it's how businesses perform better. And that can be with reference to revenue, profit, morale, customer service, or some mix of those. And it's usually helping the leader, whoever she or he might be, to be more clear about what things really matter and then helping get the organization to do those things. It sounds like everybody's book about leadership, but that's where the focus is. So, an insight that struck me is that when this business situation involves Dad or Mom who have been running the business, stepping back and letting son or daughter run the business, everybody focuses on the new kid instead of focusing on Mom or Dad. In fact, the need for change is greater for Mom or Dad than it is for the new kid because Mom or Dad has been doing this often since founding. That's what they do. That's who their identity is. And making room for somebody else is simply not something that they are even aware of. So, part of what I do is ask medium to tough questions of those people to help them sort of move from "I'm running this thing" to "I'm increasingly letting my son or daughter lead" but being there so they don't stumble. So, more focus on Dad than on son or daughter. And then if son or daughter wants help, some do, some don't. Then helping them because their challenge is different. I'll tell you a story. I was working in a construction firm, about a $50 million business, wonderful people. The owner of this company is a woman. It's a family business. And the job was to train-up her successor, who's a guy who was very able, had been in the construction industry for 35 years but had never led a major company. And the shocker was at the point where he was promoted from running a division to being Chief Operating Officer, meaning the whole company is now reporting to him. And I said to him, knowing what he was going to say, "Is this any different from your old job?" And he did. He did. Oh my God, I had no idea. He was, of course, very easy to work with because he was frank about what worked and what didn't. And so, we focused with him on delegation and how to help other people be successful rather than him doing it himself. He had less hands-on time. And so, he had to set up a structure for his people, which would help them be successful, which is one of the things we did well.
Suzanne Hanifin: I love that because, again, there's not any one solution for a situation or for a client. But let's kind of talk about you, Jim, and how you approach things. Has there been any formative leadership experience or a mentor that really has helped you grow as a professional and as a person - that you can share with us?
Jim Grew: Sure. My first two jobs were in very large corporations. They both happened to be retailers. And one of the things people don't understand about retailing is it's a very simple business, but the attention to numbers is breathtaking. They knew every week how every single store did, and every department did. And this was a particular company in Chicago with 360 stores. They had all the numbers and looked at them every week and made adjustments as they needed to. Okay. And so, the takeaway for me was numbers, number one, and number two is a regular, "How are we doing? What do we need to do?" And I didn't realize until much later, gosh, 15 or 20 years, that in fact, I was insisting on that structure every place that I worked in smaller businesses because my experience is in all of the businesses that I've consulted with, everyone, I don't know, 40 or something, the leaders are stretched enormously thin. There's a huge amount of input. It's challenging. And these are companies with anywhere from 30 to 300 employees. So, that midsize business, which is what's around here, there are so many questions and challenges and things going on that one of the major blocks to success for even the most successful leaders is being willing to say, "I'm not working on that right now. Set it aside." And so, part of what I did with every client is to say, "Where do we want to be in a year? What would that look like?" This is not a new idea, but actually doing it. Okay. Then, what do we need to do this month toward that end and help the leader steer the people in that structure?
Suzanne Hanifin: And I, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.
Jim Grew:: I was going to say that I kind of backed into doing this in a garbage hauling company, which I know nothing about. You know, to me, that's the people who show up early in the morning and take away the garbage. That's all I know. There turns out the garbage drivers I knew were all athletes. They were delightful. They were very competitive. They would know within 30 seconds when they should hit a particular intersection. They had thought through every single thing about their route. It's a very dangerous business. And one of the learnings with them was that it is dangerous. And their insurance MOD for worker comp coverage was 1.4, 1.3. I believe that is a premium multiple based on their loss experience. Multiple means more, and good businesses will — they call it an X-MOD — it will be .7,.8,.9. They were at 1.3. I think we got them down to 2.9. And it was really simple. We said we got to do it. Here's why: We want you safe. Of course, we started tracking accidents, you know, so many days since an accident kind of thing. And by the way, we had to convince the staff in the office to support this because they were hesitant to report an accident because they were concerned about getting their colleagues in trouble. So, we collaborated with them to explain why reporting incidents is crucial. We emphasized that our priority is ensuring nobody gets hurt. As an incentive, we introduced a bonus of $25 for every employee if the company achieves a month with no accidents. Although $25 may seem insignificant, the aim was to encourage a safer work environment through collective effort.
Jim Grew: Yeah, and the lesson was because we measured it and talked about it, and we had a symbolic award, their accidents went away. Like I said, their experience MOD went down to 0.9, a huge financial impact, way fewer injuries. Very satisfying because I like these people, you know, and it's a bad deal when they get hurt. So that experience was about. It's not about the bonus because somebody early told me you can't offer a bonus that's big enough to motivate most people. If you offer them a bonus of $25,000, for most people, that doesn't even buy a car or it's a lousy car. It's just, and you can't offer $100,000 to 30 people, you can't. There isn't that much cash in a year. So, the bonus system has got to be a little bit of money and a lot more measuring and recognition is another thing that I learned, and it works over and over. I'll stop.
Suzanne Hanifin: That's interesting. And so, you know, hearing this story and knowing you, you know you're known as very much a straight shooter. You don't hold a lot back. But what core values do you hold that you hold that most of your clients also need to hold, you know, that there has to be alignment? We always say, you know, between mission and vision when we're recruiting. But it's the same with you and your clients. There has to be this alignment. What core values do you look for and what are important to you?
Jim Grew: Well, first of all, I have to be hired by a client, and the basis of that is trust, which is a cliché but true. That trust has to run both ways. I need to want to work with this person because I enjoy them and believe I can help them. If I can’t help them, why are we even here? I don’t want to have an experience where a client pays me money and then gets no results. What would they say? This is a small town, and that wouldn’t be good. Plus, it's just not the right thing to do.
So, trust is the first core value. The second is honesty or truth—being able to say, "Here’s what I see, here’s the evidence." When I make a statement, if there’s any question about it, I try to provide evidence quickly and teach the people I work with to always ask, "What is your evidence?" whenever someone makes an assertion. Many people believe things without any evidence, and that’s a different conversation.
I also want to work with people who care about results. Trust fund folks may not be as concerned, as they have a different set of outcomes, and that’s not someone I want to work with. I’ve also mentioned that there should be a commitment to their people doing better. The measure of a leader is not what the leader does, but what the people do. You can look at the actions of the people and see what kind of leader they have—always, without exception, no matter the industry.
Jim Grew: You work with different sized organizations and so many different people. When you give advice, what is it typically about? Is it about people, leadership, strategy? What tends to be the one thing that holds a leader back?
Suzanne Hanifin: Oh, okay, you just flipped that on me, yeah, that's good. The one thing… Okay, that's a really good question. I don't know that there's just one thing, but one of the major issues is fuzzy goals. What are we trying to get done here? It's remarkable how few leaders have really clear goals that last the whole year. Everybody has goals for this week, or whatever, and they have their list. But that's not what I'm talking about. A lack of clear, long-term goals means their whole organization is guessing. Their people are guessing: "What am I supposed to do? What should I avoid?" And that means they're not performing well. That's a big issue.
Jim Grew: So the second question after "What's your goal?" is just a different way of asking, "What do you want to accomplish? What do you want to do better? What will it look like in a year?" It's all the same question. Those questions are designed to get the leader to stop solving problems for just a minute and say, "Where are we trying to go here?" I'm not looking for a five-year plan; I don't believe in that. Nobody's that smart, and I think it's a joke. There are planners who love to do it, and they can go do all that they want. But a year is a long time. If I can get people to say, "What do we want to accomplish?" and then ask, "What would it be worth to you if that were accomplished?" in two ways—earnings and money, and feelings about the business, satisfaction—then we're on the right track.
There’s a personal feelings and pride component in every leadership job, whether people talk about it or not. In my experience, there is. If they're now saying, "This is where we want to go," then I can ask, "What's in the way?" That’s the end of the question and that models those questions: Where are we trying to go? How are we doing? What's in the way? What I call the "How Are We Doing?" meeting, which I will help them set up. Usually, depending on the level of the organization, this happens either daily or weekly.
Most people that I work with don't want to meet every week with their key people. They say, "I don't have time," or "We always talk in the hall; it'll be fine." They're wrong. A client told me yesterday—we've been working together for two years—she was one of the people who, although very smart and practical, said, "I don't know whether this meeting will work, and here's why." She said those one-on-ones have been the most impactful and effective thing they have ever done. Period. It’s incredible, and that made me feel great, of course.
The structure for the meeting is that it’s always on the same day, at the same hour, for the same amount of time—never more than 30 minutes. The agenda is always the same: How are we doing against the goal? Where are we falling short? What’s in the way? What can we do? Over and over and over again. What she realized, and what I’ve realized, is that if you have the same agenda for a meeting that matters, people will know what’s coming and they'll prepare. By the time they get to the meeting, the good ones pretty much have their act together, or they say, "I don't have a clue how to do this." Oh good, that's helpful, one way or the other.
And I'm back to something that I said earlier, which is the importance of structure. There needs to be an organized way that everybody is approaching the goal we're trying to achieve because there are always thousands of things that aren't working right. Every single person has problems in the business or out of the business, and you can't fix most of them. But if you have a structure that is consistent, so people know, "This is where we're trying to go, here’s my part, and here's what I can't do," and they know they're going to get help, they will commit. Some of the problems, which seemed big, aren't so big. You're able to say, "Well, you know, we don't have to do that right now. Let's put that aside and do this instead," which is miraculous.
Suzanne Hanifin: I think that's brilliant, and a lot of good value. That advice is good regardless of the industry or the size of the company. I'm taking notes, are you kidding me?
Jim Grew: There is a cliche that says all businesses are the same, but they aren’t. That’s a dumb thing to say. They’re different. I think the trick is to figure out what is critical in this particular business. Most things are not. There are a few idiosyncrasies in each business that you have to execute correctly, or it doesn't matter how well you do the rest. Part of the job early on is to figure out what those are by asking, "What really matters?" It’s not hard to wade through them by asking questions like, "Well, we’ve got to always ship on time." Really? So what happens if something is late by a day? Does that really matter? In some businesses, it doesn’t; in other businesses, it's catastrophic.
Suzanne Hanifin: Absolutely, yes. So I'm going to ask you another question, which kind of circles back to you, Jim. What advice would you give your 20-year-old self about business and leadership?
Jim Grew: Oh, that's a great question. I wish somebody had told me this stuff. One is, numbers really matter. So figure out which numbers matter early, and do what you can to deliver the numbers. If you don't have numbers, you don't have cash, and you're not in business. It's very straightforward.
Allow yourself to fail in public is number two. I convinced myself that I had to be successful, which meant never letting anybody see me sweat, which is a really dumb idea. Just saying, "I don't know how to do that," is critical. It's okay to say, "I don't know what to do, and we're headed for a cliff." It’s important to be able to say that.
Interestingly enough, guys like the brake press operator would step up and offer help if they knew you wanted it. The way you ask for help is to say, "I don't know what to do, this is really important." You have to mean it. People have all kinds of ideas, and none of those things were in my head. I was bent on getting promoted and being successful, whatever that meant, which is too bad. I had a mentor, but I was terrified of him, so I never met with him. He was the president of a two-and-a-half billion dollar business, a brilliant guy, and he cared about me. I know that because when our first child was born, he and his wife sent us a onesie. But I was so scared that he would discover I wasn't perfect at everything that I wouldn't go ask him for help, which is dumb. It’s easier to ask people for help.
Suzanne Hanifin: Well, and I'm going to put it in one word: You're talking about humility.
Jim Grew: Yes.
Suzanne Hanifin: And I thought it was really interesting when you said "fail in public." Why public?
Jim Grew: Oh, because—first of all—humility, I think, is not defined very clearly. Humility doesn't mean, "Oh shucks, I can't do anything." That’s baloney. It's fair to say, "I'm good at this, let's get going on this," and it's also fair to say, "Here, I don't know what to do." So it's a mix of confidence and humility that works.
And you asked a question I missed. What was it? Oh, you said, "Fail in public." Fail in public, yes. In any kind of a company, there will be mistakes. If you're the leader, your nightmare is the company making a massive mistake—somebody in the company, not you, makes a massive mistake, and it’s very expensive. And they try to hide it. It’s a nightmare. Trying to unearth it is awful. It really disrupts morale, and people are now frightened.
I worked in another business where we weren’t making any money, and the owners of the business correctly brought in forensic accountants—that’s code for people looking for theft. Well, nobody explained this. I was running this business; I couldn't figure out how to make it go—that’s a whole other thing. But anyway, when you bring in forensic accountants, you're announcing to the people, the workers, the people doing the work, that you don't trust them. It’s awful. It’s catastrophic. You can't do that. And they didn't know what else to do, and I didn't know what else to do.
The answer was, the guy who sold the business to the investors hid the way he made money, which was in an adjacent business that he didn't sell. So the business that he sold was impossible to make money at—the guy was a crook. But anyway, that’s why my hair is white. I didn't know either.
So failing in public allows you to let other people fail because you've said, "I don't know how to do this," which allows people to then get help. And as a leader, you can say, "That's no biggie, let's move on," or "Here's something we can't do again, and here's why." If you don’t have that kind of honesty going on, then you have a problem.
Suzanne Hanifin: That was great. Thank you. I feel like this was a very valuable lesson.
Jim Grew: I had a lot of fun. Thank you for doing this, Suzanne.