A Conversation with: Zhou Fang
This episode features a conversation with Zhou Fang. founder and principal consultant of Intersectional Group LLC, a leadership practice with a focus on intersectionality, empathy and compassion, as well as curiosity.
Zhou is an advocate for pay transparency and equity, immigration reform and climate justice, as well as a committed ally for the LGBTQ+ and Indigenous communities.
Currently, Zhou serves on the board of Portland HR Management Association. She also hosts The Intersection, a podcast program about identity, personal journey, and leadership.
Zhou’s Contact Information: zhou@intersectional.group.com| 360-975-8110| www.intersectionalgroup.com
Zhou’s Contact Information: zhou@intersectional.group.com| 360-975-8110| www.intersectionalgroup.com
“There are a lot of things we learned from the past—some of them may not be as useful anymore, but there are always new things coming up that’s worth noticing. And there are also practices in the past that were considered okay, but maybe in today’s world, not appropriate anymore. So, we also need to unlearn some of those old habits or knowledge as seasoned leaders. So, it’s in a way, it’s very, very nuanced because we are constantly learning and unlearning at the same time. So, it takes a lot of self-awareness and reflection when we try to just as we continue to grow as a leader.”
Transcript:
Suzanne Hanifin: Hello, I am Suzanne Hanifin with Acumen Executive Search, and for those who have not seen our Hiring for Good podcast, Hiring for Good is about best practices in leadership. It covers lessons learned, what to do, and what not to do. This is our segment called Profiles in Leadership, where we ask our business partners to join in on a discussion about leadership. Today, I’m so happy to have Zhou Fang with us. Hi there, Zhou.
Zhou Fang: Hi Suzanne. Thank you for having me. I’m excited.
Suzanne Hanifin: I am too. Well, let me tell you a little bit about Zhou, and then I'll turn it over to her to continue on with the conversation. Zhou is a dedicated leader in DEI and is a consultant who focuses on intersectionality as well as interconnections. She approaches her projects through curiosity, empathy, and compassion. Zhou truly embodies DEI and how lived experiences can be beneficial to all. Zhou, you made this transition from corporate life to your own consultancy. Share with us your background and the journey of making this shift.
Zhou Fang: Yeah, thank you. Well, I'll try to create a shorter version. So, first and foremost, I'm an immigrant from China. I moved to the United States as an international student, and then finished my graduation, graduate degree, and then moved into corporate work. I was on a work visa for 10-plus years, working as a partnership, business development, and communications person before I moved into consulting and independent business practice as a DEI practitioner as well as a leadership consultant.
What really moved me into the consulting space was when I was working as an international worker and was really dependent on a sponsor. Because of that interesting relationship, I felt there were a lot of things missing from how we treat our workers, how we treat our teammates, how we help people grow, and how we create a diverse, inclusive, and equitable workplace. I think a lot of that can be traced back on leadership—what kind of leadership we have really has a heavy impact on the kind of team we’re going to have, which I think is really relevant to your Hiring for Good project.
So, I really wanted to make an impact on team building, leadership, and people and culture. That’s why I made the transition.
Suzanne Hanifin: I think it’s wonderful. Not only do you work with these organizations and help shape who they are, but you too also have a podcast and put out so much information. I have to say, I get hundreds of emails every day, but I read yours because they’re so good.
Zhou Fang: Thank you.
Suzanne Hanifin: And it makes us kind of look at the world and employment differently. Coming from your own core set of values, because I think that’s where we all start from—we approach the world through our values and beliefs—what kind of formative events or mentors that you’ve had that helped shape your career path?
Zhou Fang: That’s a really good question. I think every interaction I have with people I try to treat them as an opportunity to learn. So, I want to say instead of having one or two particular people as mentor or mentors, I think every single person is a situational mentor to me. Some of them had a more significant impact, some of them have more subtle impact, but I do think every opportunity we have talking with people is one opportunity for mentorship. So that’s more kinda like in a general sense. I think when it really comes to shaping my own kind of leadership style, or my values, or how I conduct my business, a lot of it actually comes from the experiences I didn’t have as a worker.
Suzanne Hanifin: Talk to me about that—not the experiences you had, but the experiences you didn’t have.
Zhou Fang: Yeah, it’s like, say ok, for example, as a worker, say I’m in a situation where there was microaggression or unconscious bias, right? A lot of us have had that experience. So, what do we expect? We expect our coworkers, our colleagues, or our managers, or our leadership, or HR—anyone in the company or team—will be like, “Hey, this is not fair,” or “What happened is wrong or not right; we should fix it,” or “We should take care of our worker.” That’s what you would hope to happen.
For me, it’s the things that didn’t happen. For example, no one stood up for me, or no one said, “Oh yeah, we should do something to correct this.” So, it’s sorta like the unmet expectations really shaped my understanding of what leadership should look like. Its like oh, “If someday I become a leader, I wouldn’t do this. If someday I became a leader, I would do this instead. I would treat my people well. I would be thoughtful. I would be inclusive.” It’s the experience that I didn’t have and wish I had that kinda shaped me and my values, if that makes sense.
Suzanne Hanifin: Oh, it makes total sense. And again, I think a lot of these learnings are hindsight, that as we grow and mature, you say, “Wow, I can’t believe this wasn’t remedied when this happened.” What advice would you give either a new manager or new leader versus a seasoned leader?
Zhou Fang: Yeah. So, I think empathy is really important, whether or not you are a new leader or a seasoned leader. Imagine what you would have done or how you would like to be treated if you were in these colleagues’ or these employees’ shoes. I think really use our empathy and to use our kinda basic understanding of everyone wants to be treated with goodwill, everyone wants to be treated with fairness, and you know, equitable practice, and inclusive practice. And I think that’s a really good starting point.
So, for new leaders, I will say it’s important to pay attention to your past. Like when you were a contributor or when you were a worker, what were the things you noticed that hmm this could be better? You know, pay attention to that, maybe reflect on that, and try to learn these kind of new skills in your position as a new manager. So that comes to career development. So, it’s also important for senior leaders to take notes like how are we going to help our new leaders grow and develop their leadership skills.
I think for seasoned leaders, again I think reflection is really important. Also, keeping up with what’s happening right now in the space because we are all lifetime learners. There are a lot of things we learned from the past—some of them may not be as useful anymore, but there are always new things coming up that’s worth noticing. And there are also practices in the past that were considered okay, but maybe in today’s world, not appropriate anymore. So, we also need to unlearn some of those old habits or knowledge as seasoned leaders. So, it’s in a way, it’s very, very nuanced because we are constantly learning and unlearning at the same time. So, it takes a lot of self-awareness and reflection when we try to just as we continue to grow as a leader.
Suzanne Hanifin: Oh, absolutely. If we’re not learning and growing, what are we doing?
Zhou Fang: I know, I know.
Suzanne Hanifin: Well, and it’s funny because DEI has come such a long way from this concept—and I’ll age myself—of, what was the term, being “colorblind.” Don’t see it. Today, we’re looking at it very differently, saying these lived experiences actually bring value. So kinda give us a top-level about of DEI today because I think we all want to learn it.
Zhou Fang: I think DEI today is at a very interesting place. In my opinion, I think DEI shouldn’t be a standalone thing. DEI really should be part of the culture, should be our HR practice, should be in our leadership practice, should be in our company strategic plan. Like, in a year, what our team gonna be look like? In three years? In five years? We should all progress that way, and diversity, equity, and inclusion should always be part of that. So that’s one thing.
I think another thing about DEI is that it has been weaponized very much these days in our very kinda polarized and divisive society these days, which is really unfortunate. I think that is a reason for me to…I to started to always spell out diversity, equity, and inclusion instead of just saying DEI. When you just say just DEI, people immediately think about identity politics or what is your agenda. Right? It’s been seen as the secret weapon or these thing that people can manipulate or leverage when it comes to policy setting or personal agendas, which is really really unfortunate. And I think it’s a misuse of DEI. But the thing is, once people have that programmed, it’s hard to get rid of.
So, to help me navigate the landscape, I’ve been spelling out diversity, equity, and inclusion and say these combined, all together, should be part of your leadership, should be part of your strategy, and should be part of your corporate culture. So, I think the way I see DEI these days really is…goes back to the foundation: is people and culture. What people want? What people need? How do we take care of our employees? How do we help shape a corporate culture—and by extension, the culture of a society—where everyone feels included, and feel safe, and can have enough space to grow and to thrive?
When we first started to talk about DEI, of course it’s because we have had, and will always have, the needs of talking about race, talk about sex, talk about gender, all that. Those needs don’t go away. As things progress, we can also see that now people have been learning about racism, sexism, and all those isms and explanations. Now let’s bring our attention back to the fundamental needs of people. It’s sort of like, in order to go from A to B, sometimes you have to take a longer route. You have to do your research, you have to go to maybe D first, maybe you have to go to Z first in order to get to B. But ultimately, the goal is B, which is taking care of people—like you said, Hiring for Good.
So that is sorta like I think DEI is and was a way of getting to doing good as a leader. Now, I think it’s time to integrate it into leadership just in general because it’s a mindset, not just a thing.
Suzanne Hanifin: Right. And I think, this in my opinion, it doesn’t matter the size of an organization; behavior and culture are top-down. And if the leaders don’t embrace it as a part of our organization and infrastructure but look at it as a thing that we need to do, real change will not happen.
Zhou Fang: I agree.
Suzanne Hanifin: That it really does start with that leader say no. Again, they are the ones setting the tone of what’s acceptable and what’s not acceptable.
Zhou Fang: Exactly.
Suzanne Hanifin: You get brought into organizations. Is it from the leader or more from the Human Resources culture piece?
Zhou Fang: That's an excellent question. It's both. I think I don't have any preference. I think when the People and Culture department brings me in, because they work with workers very closely they sorta know what people need. That's kinda the upside of when the requirements is coming from People and Culture. However, the downside is that there's sometimes a disconnect between their needs and the budget. As a practitioner, I also need to charge for my worth. We are all in this world where we need to function, we need to do good, we also have bills to pay, so as a business, I am trying to be helpful. At the same time, I also need to like hey, do you respect my worth? If you do, this is my very transparent fee structure.
So, what happens oftentimes, the People and Culture department will come in and say “This is our needs. What can we do and what is your fee structure”. And I'll give it to them, and they will be coming back and say “We don’t have the money”. So, the upside and the downside is one, the People and Culture really understands people’s needs. At the same time, sometimes they struggle with the budget. And with the leadership, the good thing really is they really already know a number they have. So, they’ll be like “This is how much we can afford, and can you tell me what we can do with this budget”. And they sort of also know what is needed. And sometimes because they don’t interact with their employees on a day-to-day basis, sometimes there could a little kind of disconnect or misalignment when it comes to in what services they’re looking for for their time.
So, there is pros and cons when requests are coming from People and Culture or leadership. But I will say, and I agree with you, Suzanne. I think changes coming from top down. When there is leadership buy-in, when there is commitment from the leadership, it just makes so, makes our life so much easier for the leadership, for the team, for workers, and for practitioners like myself. So that we can work together, kinda like have with an understanding of what hey, this is what we're trying to do together. We’re all trying to do better. And when there’s leadership buy-in, there’s a lot of like “Yes let’s do this, and let’s go”. So again, there are kinda upside and downside when the request if coming from different departments. But I do agree, when there is leadership buy-in, it’s a really good thing.
Suzanne Hanifin: Absolutely, and you’ve been doing this now for a couple of years?
Zhou Fang: Yeah, number, year number three. Yeah.
Suzanne Hanifin: Year number three. What are you really proud of? What, kind of, you go wow, that, that was awesome?
Zhou Fang: Yeah, I'm proud of the...of course when clients say…or partners say, "That was great; we really appreciate it." Of course, that feels good. And I think what feels better is when I was able to say hey I didn’t or when someone tells me, "I did not know that at all," or when someone says, "That was a different perspective, and you explained that really well to me." It was when I was able to have an impact on people's mindsets and, down the road hopefully, on their day-to-day behavior as well. It was that sort of like, a genuine feedback when people say “You really taught us something”.
Suzanne Hanifin: Absolutely.
Zhou Fang: I think that’s what I feel really proud of. And I’m also proud of talking about the cliché stuff is you know as an immigrant, woman, from China, moved to the U.S. 14 years ago and now have my own practice—that I am proud of.
Suzanne Hanifin: Absolutely, what an accomplishment. All the way. So, let’s talk about that. What advice would you give your 20-year-old self?
Zhou Fang: That is so hard. My 20-year-old self. Gosh. I will say…gosh. If I could…yeah, it’s a hard…it’s a really hard question. I want to say to 20-year-old Zhou that you have time. You have time to explore, you have time to ponder, you have time to get lost sometimes. And you have time to really think about what you want in this life. And you have time to make mistakes and correct them. And you have time to see the world. And you have time to learn from other people you are going to meet who you don’t really know who they are yet. And you have time to always become a better version of yourself. I think that’s the advice I’d give myself.
Suzanne Hanifin: And I think we can all aspire to that. It’s…it’s again reflecting and really listening to others. And you know I know I tend to sometimes bully my way in and here’s my opinion.
Zhou Fang: Listen to me! But we should be able to do that! You know. Like, listen to us. We have a lot to offer.
Suzanne Hanifin: Yeah. Absolutely. So, who…who is your ideal client? Because again, we’re here to also highlight you as a business partner.
Zhou Fang: Thank you. Thank you for that question. My ideal partner or client would be someone who either is in a leadership position or aspires to be a leader. It could be for business, it could be for a nonprofit, or it could be just simply a community leader. Whoever sees themselves as a leader in their life for community for their people. And is willing and open to learn what is intersectionality. What does an intersectional leader look like? And how can we incorporate curiosity, compassion, and empathy into our leadership practice. Those are the folks I would really love to work with.
Suzanne Hanifin: And then my last question, Zhou is that this podcast is Hiring for Good. What does Hiring for Good mean to you?
Zhou Fang: That’s a really good question. I actually…I thought about that when I came across your podcast before. Like what is…what is good. So, I think…a couple of things came to my mind, Hiring for Good. One is that Hiring for Good is doing the right thing and taking care of our team members. And also, Hiring for Good means treating people with decency, fairness, and kindness.
And also, I want to say…In today's HR practices and leadership, we don't stop at hiring. We go beyond hiring into career development. We go into employee retention. So, I think Hiring for Good to me also means that we’re not stopping hiring again but rather hiring and retaining good people and helping folks grow and helping them thrive.
Suzanne Hanifin: I love that. Well, I tell you Zhou, I really appreciate your time. All of Zhou's contact information will be available at the bottom of this and at the end of this recording. But anything else you'd like to add Zhou?
Zhou Fang: Just find me on LinkedIn and website and email. And I would really like to say in today's world, leadership means so much. It’s no longer the equivalent of a boss or a business owner. A leader really can be anyone. It can be, you know, you have a basketball team, and you are the organizer. You are the leader of the team. Or you are in your neighborhood, and you try to bring people together and have a party. And you are a leader in that sense. Or you really care about the climate and you’re trying to bring your neighborhood kind of association together and do something good for the environment. You’re a leader. So, I think when we talk about leadership and who are our leaders, I think we should all feel invited to kind of broaden our understanding of leadership and leaders in general.
Suzanne Hanifin: I love it. I agree. Well perfect Zhou. Thank you so much for your time and insights. Again, contact Zhou contact Zhou. All of her information will be below. Don’t forget to reach out to Acumen also.
Zhou Fang: Yes! Thank you so much, Suzanne.